in response he the adams campaign acrewsed jefferson of being the son of a half-breed indian and a mulato father. >> if this campaign was headed to the high road, somebody gave in the 1828 campaign, john it bad directions. >> he said in the first 100 quincy adam supporters called andrew jackson a murder or, his days, he was going to let the mother a prostitute, and his big banks once again write their wife an adulteress. own rules unchain wall street. in 1876, democrats accuse ( booing ) republican candidate rutherford they're going to put y'all back in chains. >> i've never seen a vice b. haze of two heinous crimes -- president that has made as many shooting his open mother and mistakes, said as many stupid stealing the pay of dead things. i mean the real fear if god soldiers while he was a union general. and as brown points out, the forbid he had to be entrusted to role of the media in all this has not been exactly stellar. the presidency if he had the mental capacity to handle it. in 1896, the new york time was >> schieffer: rudy giuliani is supporting republican william a big romney supporter and we'll mckinley and ran an article talk to him about that. about his opponent, title "is >> their plan makes seniors pay more so they can give another tax cut to millionaires and brian crazy." it cite one source the newspaper said it was not at liberty to billionaires. >billionaires.

give. >> schieffer: senator dick durbin of illinois has the clinton and mccain accused of president's side of that story fathering illegitimate children. the stuff about obama's birth in a week when the white house certificate, and romney being tried to explain the need to raise taxes on the rich and blamed for the death of a cancer victim. romney looked flower ways not to so it's nothing new. talk about his own tax bill. that's for sure. >> the fascination with taxes i but as my mother used to say-- paid i find to be very small just because something has always been that way doesn't mean it's right. back in a minute. real estate in hong kong, minded compared to the broad issues we face. >> schieffer: we'll talk about taxes in general with the antitax leader grover norquist, and neera tandem of the center for american progress. analysis on all of it from and the optics industry in germany? "newsweek" contributor myer at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 70% of our mutual funds ferguson. >> nia malika-henderson of the beat their 10-year lipper average. "washington post," and our own t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus john dickerson. with investment information, risks, fees and expenses plus pro-publica of the impact to read and consider carefully before investing. of these new superpacs and one of the very first negative campaign ads. >> go away, lady, you bother me. stations are leaving us now. as for the roast of you, we'll >> schieffer: this is "face be back with our political

the nation." roundtable, a new study on captioning sponsored by cbs superpac spending and our "face from cbs news in washington, the nation" flash back. ,,,,,,,, "face the nation" with bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and good morning again, and welcome to fails the nation. former new york city rudy giuliani and dick durbin join us from their home states to talk about this campaign. mr. mayor, i want to start with you. i want to ask you about your remarks about the vice preside president. did you really say at some place along the way-- i mean i heard you in the sound bite at the top of this broadcast-- that you were worried-- >> i said it. >> schieffer: you what? >> i said i-- after not knowing what state he was in, not knowing what century he was in in 24 hours, and making what i would consider to be an absolutely disgusting appeal to racial sentiment, i said i

wonder if he's got the mental capacity to be the president of the united states. >> schieffer: do you really mean that or are you just using that as a mott for? is that campaign talk or do you really think he's nuts? >> oh, no, i don't think he's nuts. i'm just saying i wonder if he has the kind of balance-- probably what i should have said is the balance to be president of the united states. this guy is like one gaffe after another, and he's a-- he's a joke on late night television. i think they've also locked him in his room for the rest of the campaign. i think the president scolded him, and-- ( no audio ) i mean it's been one strange incident after another, telling a man in a wheelchair to stand up. i don't know what's going on with him, but somebody should "face the nation" page two, explain it. and i guess there was also-- joined this morning by an excuse me for this because i all-star cast of reporters and know sometimes republicans come commentator. across looking like we feel jeff zeleny of the "new york

sorry for ourselves-- i think if we feel if this was cheney or times." nia malika-henderson of the "washington post." sarah palin, or dan quayle, my john dickerson, and joining us goodness, all you guys on from boston, neil ferguson who television would be going crazy about how could he say this and wrote "newsweek" magazine's what's wrong with him? maybe i was just trying to even cover story on first of all. up the score a little bit. neil, let's start with you. you make the case that barack i do think there are some serious questions. >> schieffer: all right, well obama needs to go. i guess i better go to dig >> well, yes, bob, i do it more durbin and see what is your in sorrow than in anger. reaction to what the mayor just we, obviously, had high hopes of said? >> i can tell you, i served with this man four years ago. but when you think abou back tot joe bide own for 14 years in the senate, chairman of the foreign relations committee and worked he promised in the inaugural with him as vice president. address in 2009, he just hasn't i would just say to paraphrase an earlier debate, i know joe delivered and that's really the key issue. if you look at the economy, it biden. joe biden is my friend. and rudy giuliani, that isn't is growing at half the speed that he promised in his first fair. what you said has gone too far. budget. if you look at unemployment, if you're going to put yourself it's more than two percentage out as the arbiter and judge of points higher than we were vice presidential candidates, promised. we're going to remember that and the debt has not stabilized. four years ago you told america it's on an explosive growth at the republican convention path. so it's hard to admit that your that sarah palin should be the vice president of the united hopes were unfulfilled, but states. she was ready to be commander in

chief and president of the that's i think what americans united states. have to do now. that speaks for itself. >> schieffer: i think i should point out, while you say we were >> schieffer: mayor? disappointed in his record, you >> i think sarah palin actually did work for john mccain. is operating at a level quite a >> i did, bob, and i disclose bit above joe biden. that in the piece, and i'm happy i mean, joe-- this is-- this is one joke after another. to disclose it now. and you can't escape that. but i also, i think, was a good i mean, last week, a wrong loser. the day the election was decided, i said, let's face it. state. last week, wrong century. the better campaigner won. and he did. last week, that was an he really ran a spectacular absolutely blatant appeal to campaign. not only getting the nomination, but winning the presidency. racism. it was-- it was they're going to and his qualities were really put you back in chains. there for all to see, quite emphasize the word "back" and it was on a teleprompter. apart from the symbolic importance of having someone of now that's disgusting, and african descent become somebody in the democratic party president. but you know, in the end, four in addition to governor wilder years on, the question is has he who had the guts to do it should done a good job as the chief executive of the nation? be able to stand up and say, joe, i'm-- i'm not going too and i think we have to accept he far. really has disappointed us. joe biden is going too far. >> schieffer: let me go to you >> i would like to say a word here. jeff zeleny, because you have there isn't a racist bone in joe been out there covering the campaign on the campaign trail. in the beginning, it seemed that biden's body and to suggest that i think is over the edge. mitt romney's thesis was the fact is joe biden throughout basically just what we heard his career has fought for neil say, that-- that barack

equality and opportunity and to suggest something else, it may obama just didn't get the job have been a misuse of words, but done. he made a lot of promises. he disappointed people. to take it to that extreme is but lately, he seems to be just too much, mr. mayor. shifting the campaign to talking about medicare, which i must >> well, how about apologizing say, i was a little surprised by for it instead of the white house backing him up on it. that, because i mean, this is kind of the third rail of make believe southern accent. american politics. i mean, i think most people y'all? joe talks like y'all in would agree there has to be some reform done on med cace but to delaware. y'all going to be put back in try to shift the campaign to chains. another maybe he didn't mean it. that, i found that surprising. >> and it sort of happened while i'll give him that. how about the vice president of we weren't watching, really. the united states apologize for i mean, it was all happening at at least what appears to be some the same time as governor romney kind of vicious pandering. was slothing his vice i would accept that. presidential candidate. i think most people would. but you're absolutely right. >> i'm going to dignify those i mean, for months, really, governor romney has been trying remarks because i think people to create a permission struck know joe biden. uif you will, for voters who they know his service to this voted for president obama four country. they know what he's done in america when it comes to the years ago, he said,un what? violence against women act, the it's okay to not vote for him criminal justice act. again. it's okay-- he is a nice guy -- this man has been an and governor romney has said extraordinary leader in the senate and the united states. this for months on the campaign if he made some misstep in his trail-- nice guy, good family guy, but he's not up to the job. statement. so be it. don't we all, mayor giuliani. now he's had a 180 here.

if you had a problem like that in the past-- clearly that was not necessarily working for the romney campaign. >> we do. i have, i have. we're seeing much more of a base and i've apologized for it. selection. and the real issue here is the romney campaign headquarters in boston realized they needed they're pretending everything is to shake things up a little bit, okay with it, and it's not. and they are trying to expand >> schieffer: let's just kind their base among republican of move on if we could a little voters, and this medicare bit here. argument, it's going to be senator durbin, what i want to fascinating to see how it plays ask you about is senator harry out. we don't have a playbook for reid who has insisted and keeps this. we don't know if we're still operating on the old script. you know, democrats have been insisting that he has heard that very successful in races at all mitt romney over the past decade levels of running on the medicare issue. didn't pay any taxes during some but there is a sense people are more concerned about the deficit of those years. he has offered no proof and other things. so if the romney campaign can whatsoever. there's nobody who can can add thread this argument, issue, and any proof to this. and yet he keeps insisting that go forward with it. it is true. it will be fascinating. isn't it time for him to basically put up or shut up on but i'm not sure they can win the argument. so far the first week in, i that? >> i'd say it's time for mitt don't think they've shown that romney to put up or shut up. they definitely can. >> schieffer: what have you seen so far, since ryan went on when mayor giuliani was running for mayor he disclosed his the ticket? un, a lot of people thought-- and i mean i think it's income tax returns and disclosed absolutely right. them every year when he was the romney people have told me want reason they wanted to make this vice presidential selection office for mayor. i've done the same thing.

early was because they wanted to and now mitt romney can put aside all of these criticisms and all of these questions in get a little bump in the polls. five minutes. all he has to do is live up to they wanted to give it time to play. because they knew with the the standards his father democratic convention coming established-- 12 years of income immediately after the republican convention, if they waited until taxes, just like president then to announce tthen they obama, 12 years. instead he has at that probably wouldn't get much of a pointalized people. bump. it turns out they didn't get we know he's the first much of a bump. presidential candidate in history to run for office with a >> that's right. the polls show they didn't get much of a bump, 1% or something swiss bank account and has like that, below what cheney disclosed the tax shelters tax got, below what palin got, below havens in the cayman islands and what biden got as well. but there has been a huge jump in terms of enthusiasm. bermuda. let him make a full disclosure they've been able to join both as every major presidential candidate has for the last 36 wings of the republican party years. >> schieffer: yes, sir, i take with paul ryan representing-- your point on that. you know, he's the young gun. but saying he ought to disclose he's the tea party, and, obviously, romney being manufacture an old-school his income taxes is one thing. moderate sort of republican. saying he didn't pay any income taxes will when you have so you've seen these huge absolutely no proof of that, crowds. that's something entirely 15,000 people greeting mitt different. i mean, that-- well, i mean it's romney, greeting paul ryan. so much so that they had at one irresponsible. point thought they would split we wouldn't print a story like up in the week before-- in the week before the convention, but that, any major newspaper in now they're going to be

together. they're the dynamic duo, out in this country. cbs news wouldn't print a story new hampshire tomorrow. because we said we heard it. we would try to check it out. so i think another thing that isn't he obligated to check this you're seeing is wi wisconsin, i out and tell us where he got the information? >> you're going two have to think the last republican to win direct that question to harry it is reagan, all of a sudden reid as to his souse of that's a toss-up. information. but what i have to say is basic, that's 10 electoral votes and ryan seems to have had an effect on that, and the white house is even before harry reid's now going to send biden there statement, why is mitt romney showing that they're all of a sudden worried about that state failing to doze the most basic maybe being in play for the republicans. >> schieffer: what about biden information about, like mayor john dickerson. giuliani has done and i have ( laughter ). >> no one has ever asked that done. question, "what about biden?" what is in there that he doesn't there seems to be a constant want the american people to see. >> schieffer: mayor giuliani, question with joe biden. the administration this week was would you like to respond to in the romney's campaign face about medicare, they felt pretty that. >> the romneys have explained good about it and then joe biden said this crazy remark about this. they laid out a year of taxes and will lay out another year of putting people back in chains. taxes. people give joe biden a break it's precisely what john because he's done this so much because it's one of his mccain did and john kerr. character traits. but in this case, the romney nobody raised the issue oh, my campaign seized on it, took an

god they didn't pay any taxes excessive amount of umbrage, because they didn't put out tax because they see it as a way to tear down the president's returns. both of them, kerry and mccain likeability. this is a president who are reasonably good men and we campaigned against the kind of comment that joe biden made. accepted that. i think the concern is, you put and what they want to be able to out 10, 20 years of taxes. say is he's not the guy you that's all we're going to be doing for the next two months. it's going to become a total elected, and this is one of the distraction. many ways he's not the guy you any-- any person who has elected, and this is evidence of reasonable amount of money is going to have complicated taxes. that. >> schieffer: neil, let me get you back into this. there's nothing wrong with where do you think this campaign governor romney's taxes. is now? i was a prosecutor. i prosecuted tax evasion cases. did, as neil says, they did get i've defended tax evasion cases. a lot of enthusiasm, and republicans seem delighted to no one in all these years has have ryan on the ticket. accused him of a crime. but there was a certain amount the i.r.s. has never brought a of delight amongst democrats as proceeding against him. you can be sure with the kind of well. i mean, it kind of made both money he made and the enormous sides happy in a funny kind of charitable contributions that he appears to have made-- maybe way. >> i think the democrats are in for a very big shock if they 15%, 20% to charity. think that this was a tactical this guy has been oddstead up mistake by mitt romney. and down, backwards and forward. i think it was a genius move, i'm pretty comfortable his taxes his best move so far. are in order. >> schieffer: let me ask you because paul ryan is the future this, mayor giuliani do you of american politics. he is the only politician who think it was a good thing for for years has been arguing we the romney campaign for politics have to deal with the fiscal crisis before it gets to the

point that it deals with us. to shift this campaign away from you know, when you look at the unemployment and the economy to real unfunded liabilities of the federal government-- and this is talking about medicare? the work that my friend larry that's always been kind of the third rail of american politics, koplokof at boston university like social security. and yet, that seems to be what did does-- we're talking more than $200 trillion here. mitt romney wants to talk about. the thing about paul ryan is >> well, you know, bob we're he's not only serious about that going to find that out when the issue. he has a mastery of that issue. celtics over. he also really gets under the it's either going to be one of skin of the president. the great political decision or remember, it was ryan who really one of the political mistakes, provoked the president into but i think it's a gutsy one, and i think it gives us some getting serious about budgetary hope we can get above all the issue, though he wasn't so name calling because by picking serious as to endorse the paul ryan, he decided-- governor romney did-- we're going to have the debate on the issues. let's have a debate on how do we bowles-simpson recommendations. reduce the deficit? i think ryan is the key here. what do we do about medicare to save it? i think although the bounce on the idea that paul ryan wants to his initial nomination was very end medicare is just a total small, that's true, i think in complete let's opposite way from lie. what he wants to do is sarah palin, ryan is going to straightep it out. he wanthe wants to ceive it bece grow in his credibility the more it's going to go bankrupt if he the american public sees of him. don't save it. he's not just smart. let's have a debate about it. and i think the president wants he's very likable. to save medicare. he has many of the character they have two different ways of traits that mitt romney really doing it. let's have a debate about that. doesn't have. paul ryan is easy-going. that's far better than their calling us names and our calling he's funny. you know, he connects with younger americans in a way that

them names. i think mitt romney struggles i hope it's the right decision. to. and as a combination, they're really greater than the sum of my instinks tell me it is. the two parts. so this is-- i think it's i think it's a good decision for terrible news for the obama the campaign, and i think campaign. they must be really worried and whoever gets elected, if we can they must be worried whether get it down to the merthe is is they can get rid of biden before at least going to have a mandate it's too late. to do something. >> schieffer: to pick up on >> schieffer: senator durbin? neil's point, that's one of the >> i can just tell you we are reasons romney and ryan are campaigning again together. anxious to make medicare the one of the things that ryan does is tell the story about mitt issue if that's what mitt romney and paul ryan want to speak to. romney. mitt romney has a problem. he's not likable. we know the record. and it's not getting better. paul ryan initiated the debate one of the things you do in a campaign is make-- especially at to privatize social security, and when the stock market the conventions-- make a craterduring the recession, he candidate more likable. that's what ryan does. stopped talk about it. then he started the effort to but peter hart did a focus group this week for the annenberg privatize medicare with his voucher system under his budget center, women, some republican, approach. now, that might work for a independent, democrats, in senior who is healthy and wisconsin and what those women wealthy. but if you're not, you're going found, showed, was ryan was more to face a $500 a month increase likable than romney. that's great except romney is in medicare premiums and many of the guy at the top of the these private insurance companies will just turn seniors ticket. there's a way he can help romney away. he raises the retirement age for making him more likable and med character the eligibility there are people who look at ryan saying i wish the guy at age, to 67, but then he would the top of the ticket were that way, and in the end part of this race may come down to, who do abolish the insurance changes

would provide any coverage for you trust. if it's about who do you trust, seniors under those circumstances. obama or romney, the one you that really dramatically changes like more maybe the ones the medicare. it ends it as we know it. and i think if they want to up-for-grabs go with. debate that, we're ready. >> the obama campaign is really medicare is a critically trying to talk about the policies of the ryan budget important program. the president has breathed eight plan. they are really trying to-- and we'll see this week. years more life into medicare they'll roll out advertisements with his changes, and what we see on the other side with and other things targeting women specifically, to look at exactly romney and ryan, unfortunately, is the death nel of medicare as what this ryan budget plan means, though. you're absolutely right about this. the thing that the boston we know it. headquarters believes in romney >> schieffer: mayor? world that this has been the the biggest change a president is going to make in medicare is biggest-- the best outcome is take $716 billion out of it's made governor romney better. medicare to fund obamacare, and he has struggled throughout the whole year to be sort of a which is an absolute disaster. and to say it's going to end good campaigner. they think that ryan sort of medicare as we know it. energizes him. and he's better at the top of if we keep medicares as the the ticket, that's the only democrats know it, it's going to chance he has to win. be gone for everyone. >> he brings a sort of "aw, somebody has to fix it. what we're discussing here is shucks" charisma to the ticket, not cutting medicare. what we're discussing is how loosens romney up on the much the increases should be. campaign trail. i do think, though, the trouble even the president wants to cut romney has had, he hasn't been the increases in medicare. able to appeal to hispanics. so the debate is how much should we cut the increases. he hasn't been able to appeal to african americans and he hasn't

medicare is going to be preserved for everyone 55 and been able to appeal to women, over. either. there's a 20-point gap in women and as a-- as i've heard from a voters. that still remains. we still have a party that has lot of young people, a lot of problems in terms of expand the them would prefer to have some base and recognizing the private optiones, not forceon demographic shift in the country. >> schieffer: well, what about you. if you want to have private that, neil, because, you know, options you can. rudy giuliani, who was on the i think to orthodox democrats broadcast earlier, he didn't say it this morning but he said it the idea of private options is before, he has said he thought frightening. i think we do want to have the marco rubio would have been a debate who trusts people more, better pick. who trusts government more, i is romney going to be able to increase the number of votes think they trust government to make all the health care that republicans normally get decisions for us. as republicans we would like to from hispanics without marco see individuals making the rubio? do you think this is going to health care decisions. hurt him down in florida? it's a good, honest debate. it's a lot better than name >> i don't think so. calling. remember, one of the things that >> schieffer: all right, i think that's a good place to paul ryan brings to this ticket call a halt here. is roam annikathologyicism. the time sup. i want to thank both of you. he'roam annikathologyicism. and i think you're right, a good, honest debate. i hope we have one. thank to both of you this morning. and that moat appear to the hispanic vote than marco rubio would have done. it's not clear his particular brand of cuban republican is a

popular pick right across the board. i think, therefore, ryan is and lives inside you. better on that point of view. on the women question, i have inspires the things you choose to do. nigh doubt this is going to be a game-changing issue. the issue in the election is the things that may not always change the world in a big way. economy. it's not abortion, which is far less of a salient issue than it but can change it in a million little ways. used to be. on the economy, ryan has one big advantage-- he has a plan. all the obama people have is a you do what you do... narrative. they attack on policy, which because it matters. they will do, we can ask what is your policy? what is the policy on your side? at hp we don't just believe in the power of technology. and because they don't have one i think that puts them in a much we believe in the power of people weaker position. the key issue for the when technology works for you. romney-ryan ticket to make a to do the things that matter. debate about the economy and who has a plan for turning it to dream. around. when you sit down and look at to learn. the ryan budget it's a plan to turn the u.s.a. around. to create. it's not an austerity budget. to work. it's a growth budget. if you're going to do something. and the problem obama-biden have make it matter. is they don't have a plan. all they have is attack ads and that's not going to be enough. >> schieffer: if that's the

plan, jeff, let me get back to what i said at the beginning, with two key figures in the why are we talking about medicare and not the economy? debate in american politics, clearly that's what we taught it grover norquist, of course, is the hero of the right. he heads up the antitax group in the beginning they were going to talk about. called americans for tax reform. the romney campaign didn't quite agree with me here. maybe they think it's medicare and neera tandem is the head of and not the economy now. the democratic think attention, >> i don't think they think a medicare argument is going to win the day for them, but center for american progress. mr. norquist, let me start with they're more pleads it's you. you're mr. no taxes. happening now in the summer of you are the guy who has gone august, than in the weeks before around and drew up this no taxes october, because they believe at that point, of course this is pledge. you goat people running for going to be rehashed and office to sign it, or you ask revisited in the debates, but they believe by that point, it's them to. going to be a confused issue. nearly every republican-- i think there are only 13 in it's going to be a not new congress, six senators and seven information. they do still think the election members of the house who haven't signed it. is on the economy. there's no question that when you get paul ryan, you get congress this time around, the entire paul ryan, and that whoever is elected president, includes the medicare argument. the debate in washington is going to be all about taxes, and in an ideal world i think they i have to say, recently some would have preferred not to have it but they are doubling down on members on the republican side, it because they believe it's thing that makes mitt romney lindh graham, senator graham of look like he's a change agent. and we've seen of seen the

south carolinas if one, says this no tax pledge is just script flipped here. the romney-ryan campaign, becoming too strinj opponent, they're presenting themselves as and it gives them no leeway to the change agent, and president obama and environment biden are reform the tax codes, even to the status quo. totally different from four years ago. >> and in some ways, they're eliminate deductions. is your pledge unrealistic? framing themselves as compassionate conservatives. you saw paul ryan down there >> the senator made that with his mom betty ryan, who is commitment to the voters of 78 or 79. he talked about-- south carolina and i expect >> that's not so old. he'll keep that commitment. >> that's right, it's not old at the pledge is a commitment not all. so, yeah, they know that they have to win the senior vote. to raise note taxes. i think john mccain won it was put in, in 1986, to help seniors 51 to 48%. reagan enact the tax reform tax they know to win the election which reducedly the marginal tax they pretty much have to win florida and certainly have to do rates to 15 and 28% from what well with seniors. >> one thing we see in the hub 25 different rates, down to medicare conversation, is paul ryan says we want to have this two, top rates, 15 and 28, and debate and the romney campaign says that, too. broaden the base. what they're really doing is not it's revenue neutral. talking about their plan. the pledge says you can't ever paul ryan talked about it yesterday for less than two use tax reform as a trojan horse minutes. what they're talking when is how bad president obama's plan is. to increase the tax burden on they're not embracing the third the american people. to that end it has been helpful rail. they're trying to push president and will be helpful in the

future. >> schieffer: what if a obama on it. they want people to know they congressman wants to eliminate a have a plan. they don't want to talk in deduction? specifics about that plan. is that considered a tax >> schieffer: where are we increase in your way of thinks? right now in the campaign? >> as long as you reduce taxes >> we are in the honeymoon period of paul ryan. the campaign is a choice and not at the same time. a referendum, and we're still there is a proposal to get rid pretty much stuck in the middle of the tax deductions for the in terms of the polls. >> schieffer: i want to thank all of you for a very energy industry, and the tax interesting discussion. we'll be back with a new report credits for solar and wind and about the outside groups that other kinds of energy, get rid finance all these negative ads. of those, reduce marginal tax in a minute. ratees, revenue neutral. it protects tax reform. it stops tax increases, and people who want to raise taxes and spend more money or raise to power our lives. ing produced taxes to pay for obama's while energy development comes with some risk, increased level of spending at the national level, the pledge north america's natural gas producers are committed says no to that. to safely and responsibly providing generations >> schieffer: miss tandem, the of cleaner-burning energy for our country, government, it's no secret, has drilling thousands of feet below fresh water sources been in total gridlock for the within self-contained well systems. last two years. congress can't even seem to do and, using state-of-the-art monitoring technologies, things when both sides want to do it. rigorous practices help ensure our operations democrats refuse to touch the are safe and clean for our communities entitlement programs. republicans refuse to increase and the environment. revenues. we're america's natural gas.

aren't people going to have to give on both sides here? >> absolutely people are going to have to give on both sides. and i would just say that, you know, democrats have favored a balanced approach. we've been willing to look at entitlements. the president actually has some ceivings in medicare in his approach on the budget, but we have to have revenues as part of that. what i would say to grover is we really don't have-- i don't think there's a consistency to approaches, because there have been tax cut that grover norquist and the republicans have opposed, even though they don't-- they are just plane old tax cuts when it the comes to the earned income tax cuts. even the health care tax cuts in the affordable care act. these are all tax cuts. the thing is they're championed by president obama and democrats but by grover norquist's standards, house republicans, paul ryan, those tax cuts we can get rid of. it's those that we can get rid of we have to protect only the

millionaires' tax credites, billionaires' tax credits and i think that is the challenge. there is a level of disingenuous here. >> that's a misunderstanding. >> schieffer: kim barker, a longtime investigative reporter and foreign affairs i certain support as the presidential candidate romney and ryan do and all those in the correspondent, now working for the watchdog group propublica, house and senate, abolishing is with us this morning. obamacare, which is 3,000 pages she's been looking into these long. we were sold hope and change. super pacs and other organizations that have become they didn't have a written down key players in this campaign. plan which is why it's so odd these groups, of course, have that the president attacks ryan really opened the floodgates and romney per for putting with money. they have spent over $130 forward specifics on when they million, i think, it is, put forward no specifics. already, kim. we ended up with 3,000 pages, 20 but you have come up with some reporting that really sheds a whole new light on how this different tax increase stuck inside obamacare. stuff is working, how this money is being funneled into nonprofit eight directly hit low-income people. organizations, which are getting directly. eight directly-- you can see a tax break for putting some of them on the web site, atr.org. these commercials on the air. so just, first, tell us, who are we go through all eight and the president didn't keep his word when he said he wouldn't raise these groups? taxes on people earning less and what is it they're doing? i'm not sure i quite understand than $200,000 a year. >> schieffer: i see neera this. >> well, that's a very good

point. i think a lot of people don't tandem shaking hear head. really understand this. they're the groups that have >> it's hard to see which these innocuous sounding names falsehood to take on. like "americans for america," the affordable care act is a "citizens for the future." these kinds of names. and specifically, what i was $600 billion tax cut for health focusing in on was not necessarily its super pacs, care, tax cuts to middle income but their nonprofit cousins, and families. there's a range of tax cuts that these are these 501 c-4 dark are authored by democrats that grover norquist and republicans money groups. both were empowered after the opposed. january 2010 citizens united and that's why i think this decision by the supreme court whole debate is one where it's which really opened the really not about tax cuts. floodgates to a lot more the president supports tax cuts. unlimited amounts of money from corporations and unions and yawn it's about making the wealthy profits going into campaign. so what we did was took a sort pay their fair share, taking of forensic look at 2010 and those tax cuts at the highest level and ensuring those people what happened in the midterm are paying their fair share as part of a balanced approach. elections with these particular what we've been talking about is groups, and how that could taxes on the people over 250, affect what's going to happen and even those information, now. basically what you have is grover and paul ryan and mitt romney, want to cut taxes, not millions of dollars-- it's going to be hundreds of millions of have them pay their fair share. dollars-- where we are not going >> 16 days into president to know where the money is obama's presidency, 16 days, he coming from. we will not know who is giving raised taxes on people who smoke the money or buying the ads,

cigarettes. average income $40,000 a year. we're not, the american public isn't. but whoever benefits from this, it only took him two weeks to there's no doubt they're going to know. screw lower-income voters. >> schieffer: but what i find interesting is that these groups he did not tell the truth. are actually getting a tax he raised taxes. in obamacare there are a series break. >> yes, they are. of tax increase. >> schieffer: for putting these ads to television, and there are tax increase medical these are the ads-- they don't say "vote for x or y." devices -- wheelchairs there's a tax increase in health care. but they say, "call president this has not reducedly the cost health care. obama" or "call mitt romney and it's increased cost of health tell them to do x, " why, or z" care. 2% tax on wheelchairs does not >> or tell them to do something reduce the cost of health care. so those tax increase, the in america. or tell them to give american president did not keep his word workers a break. on those. >> schieffer: and they're but the most important thing getting a tax break, just like happened in the last two weeks if they were a charitable is not the exciting news of ryan on the ticket but the president organization. >> sure. they get this tax break if has changed his former property. they're able to categorize these it used to be no taxes on anyone ads-- and a lot of thom do, as earning less than $250,000, on say, education, or issue advocacy. these sort of ads. august 8 and since then, we're they're able to categorize to not going to raise income taxes get a tax break. on you if you earn less than the ads they actually claim as $250,000 in the next 12 months. political ads, they're supposed so all other taxes are fair game to pay taxes on those ads but immediately. then there's another caveat on and your income tax protection that, where they're supposed to lasts one year.

>> that is-- pay taxes on that or their net >> it's open season. >> i just have to say that is investment income at the end of the year, whenever is less. absolutely false. >> august 8. >> just because grover norquist in effect, you can find a way to interprets the president saying get out of paying these taxes. >> schieffer: aren't they something doesn't mean he said having to certify to the it. he has held firm to his internal revenue service that these are not political ads? commitment of not raising taxes on anyone earning under >> "certify." $250,000. it's been fact checked by folks what does that mean? here's the interesting thing we one way or the other. found out, folks don't have to >> and found not to be true. pay taxes, they don't have to >> and the truth is here that the only person who actually has submit their taxes for more than a year after an election, and by a plan to raise taxes to then, the ads are off the internet. it's difficult to find the ads. middle-income information by, if you're the i.r.s. and your you know, independent arbiters primary goal is collecting is mitt romney whose tax plan is revenue, do you really want to giving a massive tax cut to the spend all your time chasing these nonprofits? i mean, it's a huge problem, and wealthy, and will pay for it by increasing taxes by $2,000 on nobody's actually-- the thing i find is known is talking about middle income family when barack it. it's just sort of accepted this obama has lowered taxes. is the way it is, that we have >> schieffer: all right, i all this anonymous money coming in and there's nothing we can do gave rudy giuliani the last word in a previous segment. about it. >> schieffer: isn't somebody you get it in this segment. supposed to police this? >> yeah. thank you all both. >> schieffer: isn't somebody we'll be right back. supposed to check on it and who would that be? >> the i.r.s. is supposed to on one hand, and the f.e.c., the

federal election commission, they are the ones who are supposed to be monitoring the ads being reported. but they're paralyzed by the 3-3 partisan split. you can actually go in front of the f.e.c. and say, "i want to run ads." one group did this. "i want to run ads that say the white house or administration," right before this election. "and i'm not naming obama so do i have to report these to the . f.e.c.?" no, they deadlocked 3-3. there's one group that will be running ads right before the priority mail flat rate boxes. sdomestic energy future election. you're not going to know who is paying for those ads. that puts us in control. europe not going to know necessarily where they're going our abundant natural gas is already saving us money, or how much they cost because they don't have to report them to the f.e.c., but they're going producing cleaner electricity, to be out there influencing what putting us to work here in america people think about the campaign. >> schieffer: they're doing it and supporting wind and solar. with a tax break. though all energy development comes with some risk, in other words, the taxpayers getting stuck with part of the bill for these things. we're committed to safely and responsibly >> right, because they don't producing natural gas. have to pay federal income it's not a dream. america's natural gas... taxes. >> schieffer: how-- how did putting us in control of our energy future, now. this come about? >> well, these are groups--

they're called social welfare organization, and they're allowed to spend a certain amount of money on politics-- [ male announcer ] aggressive styling. they always have been, or at a more fuel-efficient turbocharged engine. least for the past couple decades. but it's always to further their and a completely redesigned interior. mission, like national right to life or sierra club, they have a the 2012 c-class with over 2,000 refinements. specific issue and they run ads and campaign ads to further it's amazing...inside and out. that. it's not like these new groups that sprang up overnight, again, the americans for america ♪ citizens are the future, groups join mercedes-benz usa on facebook with vague names that everybody can get behind, come in, tell for the best summer sweepstakes. the i.r.s., we're not even going to do politics at all, and they get recognized as tax exempt, turn around, start buying ads. >> schieffer: with all the nastiness we've seen lately, it's easy to wonder, where we we've seen this since 2010. headed toward one of the we're going to see it to a much dirtiest campaigns ever? greater extent in 2012. here's a dirty little secret-- >> schieffer: thank you very the short answer is no. much. that's an eye opener. we'll be back in a moment in our author laura brown pointed out "face the nation" flashback. in "u.s. news and world report" stay with us. >> schieffer: we were talking last week, america has a long history of ugly presidential campaigns. they haven't gotten worse. they're just following a tradition as old as the

republic. thomas jefferson's campaign against president john adams was probably the first really nasty one. jefferson supporters accused adams of being a hermaproodite.

earlier about how dirty american politics can sometimes be, but it was television that gave negative advertising new meaning. >> the burdens of that office

stagger the imagination. one of the first came in 1952 when the stephenson campaign launched this one against eisenhower, where we begin our "face the nation" flashback. >> step right up, folks. see the mental marvel of the campaign, mr. g.o.p. he promises to solve all your problems. ask him any questions. >> what about korea? >> we don't belong in korea. let the commies have it. >> we should expand the war. >> wait a minute, we can't do both. we kane pull our troops out of korea and invade china. >> go away, lady, you bother me. any more questions. >> 8, nine... >> schieffer: in 19 cork after the johnson campaign went up with the infamous daisy ad suggesting barry goldwater would start a nuclear war, campaigns got so nasty-- ( explosion ) >> the parties signed a pledge

promising not to be negative. >> the campaign of 1964, may escalate into a fear smear-fest of alarming proportions. >> schieffer: the alarm went off but no one heard it. in 1988, the infamous willy horton ad helped george bush get elected. >> did you contactas allowed first-degree murder tore have weekend passes from his prizon. one was willy horton. >> schieffer: the swift boaters in 2004 helped sink john kerry. >> john kerry has not been honest about what happened in vietnam. >> schieffer: the coming of the super pacs flooded the system with more money this year and brought this ad suggesting romney was responsible for a cancer victim's death. >> and she passed away in 22 days. >> schieffer: politics ain't beanbags, the old sayings from, but the flower of nastiness really bloomed with the coming of television. and now with the internet, anything goes.

our "face the nation" "flashback. the modern world... to hold over 80,000... well, that would make you... the creators of the 2012 mercedes-benz e-class... quite possibly the most advanced luxury sedan ever. ♪ join mercedes-benz usa on facebook for the best summer sweepstakes. join mercedes-benz usa on facebook

that's it for us today. i hope you join us next week when we'll be broadcasting from the republican convention in tampa and talking to florida's republican senator marco rubio. plus we'll have all the latest from the campaign trail and the big roundtable.

thanks for watching. we'll see you then. ,,,,,,,,,,